Diskusní fórum

To jo, ale je tu 'ale'; Eönwë a Ilmarë jsou největší valinorští Maiar ( téměř jako Valar ). Curumo a Olórin jsou tedy menší. Ale Istari měli být na počátku velcí jako Sauon, takže Curumo, Olórin a zřejmě i Alatar ( částečně ) měli být velcí jako on. To znamená že by Eönwë a Ilmarë měli být větší než Sauron. Tolken taky píše, že Melkor strhl duchy některé větší, jako Sauron, nebo jen o trochu slabší jako balrogy. Gandalf porazil znatelně oslaben balroga... Melkor ale zlákal také Ossëho, a ten nebyl velký jako Eönwë nebo Ilmarë, takže by Sauron z toho měl být podobný Eönwëmu a Ilmarë, protože Sauron byl největší sluha Melkora, ale zase počítá Tolkien Ossëho za služebníka. Myslím že ne. Navíc je tu jakási souvislost. Mocí sestupně dolů Manwë měl Maiu Eönwëho a Olórina Varda měla Ilmarë a zřejmě Arien ( alespon určitě v dřívějších verzí ) Ulmo měl Ossëho, Uinen, Salmara Aulë měl Saurona a Curuma Oromë měl Tiliona, Alatara a Pallanda

Z toho co je psáno, to vypadá že vždy Maia daného Valy byl větší podle toho, jak byl mocný Vala vůči jinému Valovi. Manwë a varda = Eönwë a Ilmarë, Manwe větší než Aulë = Olórin větší než Curumo a ti než ostatní Istar. Manwë větší než Ulmo a jeho Eöwë větší než Ulmovo Maiar atd...

Tady to je:

"200 From a letter to Major R. Bowen 25 June 1957 I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished. The theory, if one can dignify the modes of the story with such a term, is that he was a spirit, a minor one but still an 'angelic' spirit. According to the mythology of these things that means that, though of course a creature, he belonged to the race of intelligent beings that were made before the physical world, and were permitted to assist in their measure in the making of it. Those who became most involved in this work of An, as it was in the first instance, became so engrossed with it, that when the Creator made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it, from the beginning of its 'realization'. They were allowed to do so, and the great among them became the equivalent of the 'gods' of traditional mythologies; but a condition was that they would remain 'in it' until the Story was finished. They were thus in the world, but not of a kind whose essential nature is to be physically incarnate. They were self-incarnated, if they wished; but their incarnate forms were more analogous to our clothes than to our bodies, except that they were more than are clothes the expression of their desires, moods, wills and functions. Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwë, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds). Some had attached themselves to such major artists and knew things chiefly indirectly through their knowledge of the minds of these masters. Sauron had been attached to the greatest, Melkor, who ultimately became the inevitable Rebel and self-worshipper of mythologies that begin with a transcendent unique Creator. Olórin (Vol II p. 279) had been attached to Manwë. The Creator did not hold himself aloof. He introduced new themes into the original design, which might therefore be unforeseen by many of the spirits in realization; there were also unforeseeable events (that is happenings which not even a complete knowledge of the past could predict). Of the first kind and the chief was the theme of the incarnate intelligence, Elves and Men, which was not thought of nor treated by any of the Spirits. They were therefore called the Children of God. Being other than the Spirits, of less 'stature', and yet of the same order, they were the object of hope and desire to the greater spirits, who knew something of their form and nature and the mode and approximate time of their appearance in the realization. But they also realized that the Children of God must not be 'dominated', though they would be specially susceptible to it. It was because of this pre-occupation with the Children of God that the spirits so often teek the form and likeness of the Children, especially after their appearance. It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it teek some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron teek a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present beek. I am sorry if this all seems dreary and 'pompöse'. But so do all attempts to 'explain' the images and events of a mythology. Naturally the stories come first. But it is, I suppose, some test of the consistency of a mythology as such, if it is capable of some son of rational or rationalized explanation."